Dr. Maureen Murphy – On How Science Will Make the World a Better Place

In this episode of The Wistar Institute's podcast, Dr. Maureen Murphy touches upon the science of life—in the lab and beyond. She focuses on her cancer research career connected to social consciousness, but also writing well, poetry, politics, and nature.

Transcript

MS 00:01

This is Wistar Science Up Close, where we tell the stories of researchers who are global leaders pushing the boundaries of what's possible in biomedical research. Today, I'm your host, executive producer Michele Schiavoni. I had the pleasure of interviewing Wistar Science Up Close's moderator, Dr. Maureen Murphy, the deputy director of the Ellen and Ronald Caplan Cancer Center, the Ira Brind professor and program leader of Wistar's Molecular and Cellular Oncogenesis Program, and Associate Vice President for Faculty Affairs. In each episode of Wistar Science Up Close, we'll take you into the labs and lives of our scientists to learn about their expertise in fields like vaccine development, immunology, infectious diseases, and the fight against cancer. You'll also get to know a bit about our scientists outside of the lab. Dr. Murphy is renowned for her cancer research and possibly the most sought after mentor for postdocs and cancer research here at Wistar, we will hear about how Dr. Murphy got her start in biomedical research, her passion for writing well, and some advice for those who choose a career in research. 

Dr. Murphy, thanks so much for joining us today. Let's start with the beginning, if I may. As a child, what did you want to do when you grew up?

MM 01:32

Thanks, Michele. So when I was a kid, I realized I was different from other kids -- probably something we all realize -- but what I realized was that I had more energy than most of the people I knew. I felt like I had this constant humming of energy. And I was going to have to pick a vocation that would use it, otherwise, I was gonna go nuts. So I was that kid, that the teacher would be halfway through the sentence, and I would answer with the answer, and probably the other kids thought I was obnoxious. But after a little bit of back and forth with other careers, I decided when I was about 12, or 13, that I wanted to cure cancer. And actually, he was a big influence. When I was a kid literature was my love. I loved reading. And I read Dick Gregory's autobiography, interestingly enough, when I was like 10, when it was probably totally inappropriate that I was reading that. But he actually said in there that he wanted his life to be about making the world a better place for others, interestingly enough, and that really hit me. And I think that's how I came upon the idea of trying to cure cancer of spending every ATP in my body, every thought in my brain, every love in my heart towards trying to cure cancer.

MS 02:52

Fascinating. Now reading Gregory, at what age?

MM 02:56

Just 10 or 11.

MS 02:58

That's precocious. Talk to me a little bit about that. You just...books were a big part of your life from the beginning?

MM 03:06

From the very beginning. And in fact, when I was about six, I decided I was going to read the entire library at my middle school, I was going to go book by book and read the entire thing. And I probably got up to M or N in author's names before I graduated and had to move on.

MS 03:26

And where did this single mindedness and determination come from? Family parents, just you make the observation that you realized you were different? First to raise your hand?

MM 03:39

Yeah.

MS 03:39

Talk to me a little about that.

MM 03:41

Single mindedness I claim for myself. I don't think I got that from either of my parents. But we all get gifts from our parents. We all molded after them. And I think that what I got from my mom was work ethic. That woman worked to beat the band, she was always working. The other thing I got from her, which I really love, and I appreciate now, not so much then but now very much is how she could see things in nature and point them out to us. You know, when you're a kid you're playing and you're not thinking about things and she would say, “Maureen, look at the way the sun is hitting that barn, side of the barn and how beautiful it brings out the tones.” I grew up on a farm we did have a barn and one time, I guess a barred owl was in the barn and couldn't get out, couldn't find his way out, hit a window and died. And my first thought was “How sad,” but her first thought was “Feel these feathers. Aren't they the most exquisite thing you've ever felt?” So it was interesting to see her perspective of adoring nature. And then of course we had barn cats. Every farm has 37 barn cats, and she would point out the genetics. Look who's calico, Look who has six toes versus five toes. So it was an interesting science background in an otherwise very poor upbringing, unfortunately, but it was a privilege to grow up on a farm. My dad was a New York City fireman. So he would work these 48 hour shifts, so we did not see him a lot. He would be 48 hours in New York at the firehouse, come home for 24 work another 24 Come home for 48. When we were growing up, he was either at the firehouse or he was standing on a ladder with a paintbrush painting our 200 year old farmhouse all summer with a paintbrush all summer long. So that's mom and dad.

MS 05:41

I remember hearing you say, at one point, that he was a firefighter and never sit with your back towards the door because you always have to have an exit strategy.

MM 05:54

It is true whenever I drive anywhere, I know where my car is parked and where I'm going to leave, I always say where's the exits? Yes, it's absolutely true. He was actually really kind of famous as a fireman in New York City in the sense that he was the first fireman who pioneered swinging from your personal rope to rescue people from building to building, they called him the fireman on the trapeze. And he won several medals for this. And then he did participate. He retired probably 10 years before the World Trade Center, but then went back to do the cleanup in the World Trade Center. So he's a hero in his own right.

MS 06:36

Definitely. So this commitment to something that does good in the world, you ended up with focusing on cancer. Fast forward to today, or as you're sort of growing into your career when people said, what do you do for a living? What was the answer?

MM 06:52

It took me a while to figure out, I always view my science career as a cart on a roller coaster. And either you're completely on the roller coaster, and you're moving fast, and there's no loose wheels, which is honestly where I feel I am now. But in the beginning, you sort of have a loose wheel and you're not quite in your groove. That's what it is. So I feel like I'm in my groove now. And that groove is studying cancer disparities in African descent people. I have always wanted to cure cancer, I always wanted to work on the protein that I work on, which is the most important protein in your body p53. But now, I studied genetic variants and p53. And I ask the question - do these variants explain why individuals of African descent have the worst cancer prognosis of any other ethnic group? And I think the answer is yes, that they have genetic variants of p53 -- meaning their protein is different from yours and mine -- and it doesn't function as well. So they have increased cancer risk, and poor efficacy of cancer therapy. So we try to inform of risk, but also improve therapy, something gutsy that I did that was really pretty stupidly gutsy, was to say, I bet you that if individuals of African descent who have this genetic variant if they don't respond to most forms of chemo, I bet I can find a form that works better. And working at Wistar in our unbelievable molecular screening facility, we've been successful time and time again, finding drugs that preferentially work on individuals of African descent. That's been thrilling.

MS 08:43

So why is p53 so important?

MM 08:46

p53’s job in your cell is to be a cancer killer. That's his whole job. And you really don't have many other proteins that do that. This protein is the protein that a second a cell divides when it's not supposed to. That's what cancers do, they proliferate, when they're not supposed to the very second a cell starts to divide, when it's not supposed to meaning I might not have enough growth factors to divide, I might not be ready to replicate my DNA. The second that happens p53 becomes alarmed and kills that cell. So in that respect, it's the most powerful protein in your body.

MS 09:24

Fascinating. But you took that research to the next level focusing on variations based on ancestry. Let's talk a little bit about that.

MM 09:34

So whenever we talk about ethnicity, we're all a gemish, right? We all have multiple if any of us who've done 23andme Find out we’re 37 different ancestry groups, and that's no different from African descent. So for example, the genetic variants I study are present in about 10% of individuals in Africa, and about 2% of African-descent people in America got because of outbreeding, and then about three to 4% of individuals in South America. So you're talking about ancestry and molecular markers for ancestry. And these p53 variants track with ancestry.

MS 10:15

So your research focused on health disparities and underrepresented populations.

MM 10:22

It really did, Michelle, because p53 is a protein of 393 amino acids. And there are 220 genetic variants in there. 220, up to 393. So the amount of genetic variation in this protein is enormous. I picked African descent and we study also an Ashkenazi descent genetic variant. I picked those because I also wanted to mix a social consciousness into my research. And that was so satisfying. Science can be very ego based, we meet some scientists that have a huge ego. And then we meet scientists like me, who are constantly told by grant reviewers, your ideas are terrible. But if I'm also incorporating a social cause in there, I no longer take it personally, when people tell me, I don't know why you're working on this. It's a ridiculous area. I say to myself, I know I'm right -- and more to the point -- I know social consciousness wise, I'm right. And that takes ego completely away from me. I only think about the people that I'm trying to help with my research. And therefore it no longer bothers me when I get grant reviews that say, the science is terrible. It no longer makes me feel ecstatic if I get grant reviews that say you're amazing. I do get those as well, occasionally. I only think about helping these groups of people.

MS 11:51

Fascinating. Dr. Murphy, that is an admirable trait with regards to your research, because I don't know many researchers who would respond as you do to the this research is yeah, just not making the cut. You seem to be able to get beyond that, because of your calling, if you will.

MM 12:09

And I think it's funny, the average person doesn't realize that 91% of grants fail. The National Cancer Institute funds 8% of all grants that go to it, that means there's a 92% failure rate. Who else would engage in that career with a 92% failure rate, you have an 8% success rate. So the average person is getting grant review saying not good enough, not smart enough, not clever enough. Not important enough. But by having the social concern as well. It's been wonderful. Honestly, though, what amazes me a little bit. So I started this about 20 years ago, because I thought cancer disparities would be really big in 10 years. And it's 20 years later, and it's still not as big as it should be. To be honest with you. I was a little surprised how slow science goes, maybe that's not surprising. Everything goes slowly. But I was a little surprised how long it has taken for the rest of the world to catch up with me and realize that this is a really important area, no doubt.

MS 13:19

And I'm sure along the way, there have been failures and disappointments and you've hit the wall. So how do you dust yourself off, stand back up and go back into the lab?

MM 13:28

Sure, there's tons of failures. We can't have a podcast without mentioning Rumi. Rumi says, right? “Wounds are the places where the light comes through.” And I try and teach the trainees in my lab that failures are the places where we can learn the most. Something I became aware of that I never really thought about that happens a lot in science -- if you prepare yourself for it --  is the aha moment. And the aha moment -- the first one I ever had – came when I saw all of this data that came from my lab that was counter to my hypothesis. It was the exact opposite of what I thought would happen when we did these experiments. And we kept getting more and more and more data. And it just kept me up at night, until I finally decided to listen to the data instead of myself and say, “What are the data telling you, Maureen?” Right, that's a failure. The data told me my hypothesis was wrong, but what were the data telling me? And I went, “Aha! This is what the data are telling me.” And that's actually way more satisfying to just sit and listen to the data. So now we try and design experiments, where we don't have a hypothesis, where it doesn't matter what the answer is. We know something now that we didn't know before and we build on it. And that also helps trainees because again, ego is taken out of the equation not, oh, my hypothesis was wrong, I'm so stupid. We just ask questions that tell us something that we didn't know before. And then we build and build and move on.

MS 15:11

But it is a journey that doing research takes time, I assume that if you're in immediate gratification if that is something that's important to you in your career, science research is not for you.

MM 15:24

I think that's absolutely true. It used to frustrate me how long it took for things to work in research, it used to frustrate me for how long it took for drugs to receive FDA approval. I think there's some benefit to going slowly. I think if you go slowly, you are more sure of your path. I think when drugs do finally get into humans, they're ready for it. So I'm not so disappointed that things go slowly.

MS 15:54

I've observed that when you're in a meeting with other scientists, you come to the meeting fully present, you generally speaking are one of the first to ask a compelling question of one that gives pause for thought. Are you always on?

MM 16:10

Am I always on? No more often than not? I have to watch myself and check myself. I sort of have to have the five answers to a question sitting up there and go, “No, I cannot say that that's politically incorrect. No, I absolutely can't say that.” And then there are the times that you feel your spidey sense telling you you probably shouldn't say this, but it's leaving your mouth. So I am very grateful that you say I have something compelling to say that's careful. I try. But it goes against my personality. My personality is usually she speaks well before she thinks usually.

MS 16:46

But you write well. Where did the passion for writing well come from?

MM 16:52

If I have a call out to any teacher in my history, it's my high school English teacher, Anne Lawrence, who said to me, you have a talent at writing. And it might have been the first time in my life that anyone told me I have a talent in anything. And it's so important to tell kids, you know? I love telling people in my lab, you have a particular talent at this, because I can see that they're shocked, gratified, relieved... So it's so important. So and Lawrence first said, you have a talent at writing. But actually it was Erica Golemis, who is on the faculty at Fox Chase Cancer Center, who I worked with and co-taught a science writing class. Now we all know how to write, or at least we think we know how to write. But this is a special blend of writing that I teach, and that is writing for people who do not want to read what you're writing. We all want to read the latest John Grisham, but no one wants to read grants. And so I try and convey to my students, you want to put information where people expect it, you want to create a sense of flow, you want to create a sense of repetition so that they get the idea. You want to make understanding your ideas as easy as possible. So I have the five rules to good writing that I teach to my students. I have acronyms for: What is the question? What is the experiment? What is the result? What is the answer? Things like that. And that was all Erica Golemis, who taught me that, and it changed the way I wrote. We all think we know how to write. But do we know how to write and put information where readers expect it? And do we know how to write to cater to the reader, I'm going to make this easy on you. And I tell everyone that takes my writing course, you are about to embark on the single most important course that you're going to take in your entire career. I don't care what you do for the rest of your life. You have to write and you have to write compellingly you have to convey you have to persuade. And so that's what this course is all about.

MS 19:03

Point taken. So tell me who you read and why?

MM 19:07

When I was young and precocious, I loved Emily Dickinson. Did I understand her? Absolutely not. Do I now? Probably not. You know, when you read her, she's just so dense and hard to understand. But I know you're going to ask me about Mary Oliver who I adore. So there's a Dutch philosopher named Baruch Spinoza. And he actually was really controversial. People called him an atheist was a lot of prejudices against him because they thought he was an atheist. He wasn't an atheist. He never said that. He didn't believe in God. What he said was he didn't believe in heaven. And he went one step further. He said, Heaven is actually here on Earth. We are actually living in heaven right now. But we don't know it because we're on our cell phones and we don't see the Heron flying over us and we do I don't see all of this beauty. And that's what Mary Oliver believes she had a terrible life. But she adored paying attention to nature. And that to her was her religion. And that, to me, is what I believe. I believe that there isn't clouds and angels. I just don't believe it. If it's true, that's great. But if it's not true, I'll be okay. Because I believe Heaven is here. And it is nature.

MS 20:30

Favorite Mary Oliver poem or essay?

MM 20:33

It changes all the time, depending on what I'm going through, I have this annotation of Mary Oliver's where, for example, recently, I was undergoing some grief. So I quickly searched five Mary Oliver poems on grief. And then I read the first one, no, that doesn't help me. Second one, sorry, doesn't help me. The third one was perfect. This is it. This puts the grief that I'm feeling right now in a place where I can tolerate it and sit with it and understand it. I don't have a favorite Mary Oliver poem, I have about 100 of them. But my favorite book is her book devotions, which is the collection of multiple, but again, different times of my life. I've had different favorite books of hers.

MS 21:17

Is there a book in Dr. Murphy's future?

MM 21:22

There's a book of poetry and my future. Yes, I've already written about 15 poems from my book of poetry. And when I retire, I'm also going to take up some photography and mix poems and pictures and probably self publish it.

MS 21:36

So any comparisons between because I believe that scientists are creatives, and I don't think a lot of people necessarily associate creativity with with biomedical research. Talk to me about the connection between what inspires you where's the muse for the poetry? And is does that Muse know, the Muse that motivates you in the lab?

MM 21:58

I actually think that as scientists, we use one side of our brain so much that the other side just need something. And so it was very good to me to exercise the other side of my brain by taking literature classes. When I started my career, I lived across the street from Montgomery County Community College, and would take English classes there. And then, of course, was the big pain in the room. But I think so and so's motivation. And the other students were like, can we please get her to shut?

MM 22:30

It's hilarious, because it was undergrads and they just wanted to get their three credits and go home. And I want to talk about the motivation of Hedda Gabler. Why was she that way? You know, so it was funny. So I wanted to exercise the other side of my brain and poetry definitely does it. And I just think it's a balance.

MS 22:50

I think I'm hearing this but do you think it enriches your capabilities? As a researcher?

MM 22:55

No question, no question in any aspect of life, you need to use both muscles. And this is using both muscles of your brain.

MS 23:04

Excellent. So we have some challenging times ahead with regards to funding research. And we've had some, in fact, I'm sure these issues will come and go for a very long time. But if Dr. Murphy gets asked to go to City Hall, or on the Hill to testify about why then I want to be specific biomedical research is important. Why Life Sciences important? I'm wondering, what's your sort of message platform would be? How do you sell it?

MM 23:39

In the one or two times that I've spoken to politicians? Number one, I believe the average person doesn't know how incredibly successful we have been in creating new drugs for cancer. And the best way to do that is with facts. And a fact is this: In the year 2000. Cancer has successfully a survival rate of 50%. 50% of people live five years or more. It's now 80%, even though cancer is on the rise, especially in young people. So we've done an amazing job increasing survival from cancer. And I don't think the average public knows that. So we do need to send to everyone in America. These are the drugs that have come out. These are the successes we've had. The second biggest issue, Michele, is trust. I think a lot of times the public has learned to not trust scientists. And the way I get around that is this. When I speak to politicians, I draw similarities between myself and them. I am only here to make the world a better place. That's it. I'm not here due to ego. I'm never going to make a lot of money. I'm not going to achieve fame. I'm not going to win the Nobel Prize and they never were my goal. My goal was we need to sit in a lab and try and help humankind. And that's a politician's goal. And I think that that's a goal that the average person can understand. But I don't think that they understand that that's the goal of the scientist is to sort of sit in the background, and try and find better cures, and certainly not become a household name.

MS 25:23

It's an interesting point, because you would think after the pandemic, there would have been an aha moment, a sort of epiphany. I think I missed the epiphany.

MM 25:34

I completely agree with you. There's a fondness for conspiracy theories out there that I do not understand. And there's a lack of understanding about what motivates the average scientist. And we have to let the public know that maybe that means more scientists need to run for public office and get their story told, maybe it does. It wouldn't be a bad thing.

MS 25:58

Senator Murphy?

MM 26:00

Why not?

MS 26:00

I'll help you with your campaign.

MM 26:02

Bring it!

MS 26:02

All right, you're on. What does success look like for you at this stage of your career, as a person and as a scientist?

MM 26:11

When I think about my career, and what I'm proudest of, I probably 20 years ago would say I'm proudest of this work, or that work, or this finding or that finding, I'm definitely proud of having worked my way through college, putting myself -- I started college with $50 in my pocket -- and put myself through. And I'm proud of that. But I'm actually most proud of my trainees. When trainees come to my lab, they get an article that was written by a very famous cancer researcher, named Art Pardee. Art Pardee discovered the restriction point, which is the point at which a cell decides it's going to divide. p53 is intricately in there. And his article was that the best life lesson he learned from his father was that kindness is free. Kindness costs you nothing. And why not be kind? And if anything, I'm proudest that that's been a consistent message in my lab, we are the kindest lab. We're also the smartest lab here and the hardest working and the most productive. But we are by far, I think, the kindness lab, and that runs the Murphy Lab.

MS 27:29

And I've experienced that. So I don't think we can say enough about the need for kindness. It's particularly at this stage of our countries and the world's situation. One final question for you. What advice would you give the younger Dr. Murphy?

MM 27:45

All right, well, now I'm really going to say something that you are probably going to be shocked about the advice for the younger Dr. Murphy. And the younger everyone is this, except the fact that you are hurtling towards death. We are all hurtling towards death, except the fact that we, as a race are hurtling towards extinction. We are actively trying to extinct ourselves. Those are the two biggest stressors in the world, our fear of death, and our fear that we're going to all destroy ourselves. And once you realize that those two things are going to happen. Things get better. In fact, I would say this, don't just realize that you're hurtling towards death. Embrace it. Say to yourself, “What does my last day look like?”

MS 28:39

Dr. Murphy, I love the advice. Sound Advice for all of us. It's been absolutely fascinating. Thank you so much for your time. Next time we're going to ask you to read one of your poems.

MM 28:50

I absolutely will Michele.

MS 28:52

Alright, thank you so much, Dr. Murphy.

MS 28:57

That was my interview with Wistar Science Up Close's moderator, Dr. Maureen Murphy, the deputy director of the Ellen and Ronald Caplan Cancer Center at the Wistar Institute. This show is produced by the Wistar Institute in partnership with Rowhome Productions. I'm your executive producer Michele Schiavoni. Rowhome's executive producers are Alex Lewis and John Myers. This episode features music from Blue Dot sessions. It was produced by Justin Berger. For more information about the Wistar Institute, visit us at wistar.org And make sure to subscribe to Wistar science up close on Apple podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Michele Schiavoni. And thanks so much for tuning in.